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Online Mrs. DantesDame

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Learning to Ride
« on: June 30, 2020, 02:09:17 PM »
I learned to ride (slowly and at a late age) a long time ago. Then I met Dan because he wanted to learn to ride. And now I have a friend who wants to get her license and first bike. This last one is quite interesting, as she has to navigate the difficult Swiss process of getting her endorsement.

Unfortunately for her I am not much help, as I was able to just transfer my US license direct to a Swiss one (and they even gave me the authority to pull a trailer - the fools!) But here there are restrictions, including not just the cc of a motorcycle, but also the kW. And the theory tests, and the required 8 hours of personal lessons, and the mandatory first aid course, and then the actual test - where the tester rides pillion on your bike while you navigate the city's streets  ???

She is also working on a shoestring budget, so finding "the bike" for her might be fun, to put it one way. I do have lots of spare gear, so I can at least get her outfitted for safety.


Anyway, there's not really much point to this post other than so say that I am really glad that I didn't have to go through the Swiss process   8)

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Online sodapop6620

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2020, 07:38:45 PM »
I heard that the Germans are tough also and it costs a lot of money.

Online thatguy

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2020, 09:16:03 PM »
It should be much more difficult here as well. Far too easy.
sometimes WTF is the appropriate answer

Online leeo45

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2020, 10:00:07 PM »
When I was working in the Netherlands I helped a couple of friends with their license training and qualifications.    Seems like it took 2 or 3 years to go through all the training, formal schools, tests, and graduated licenses before they were able to ride what we would call a full-sized bike.   The NL also had the requirements with the instructor/tester riding pillion (which I always felt was a bit extreme for smaller riders).    Good luck to your friend.   It is a challenging process, although it certainly graduates more capable and aware riders than the U.S. process of "Ride your friend's bike through those five cones and then go get your picture taken."

Online Smoothie

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Learning to Ride
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2020, 11:44:46 PM »
I’m always excited to hear about someone who wants to learn to ride and get a bike.  What a fabulous adventure they are about to embark on.  :banana:

It’s key that your Swiss friend has you to gear her up and encourage her.    :bigok:
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Offline ixxion

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2020, 05:47:15 AM »
I think the UK process is a bit grinding, and I've heard horror stories about the Japanese testing, at least for open class bikes.  It would be interesting to hear of requirements in more anglicized countries such as Australia.

If the requirements were considerably greater here, I wonder if we would have a lot fewer motorcycles on the road, or if we would have more and maybe better smaller bikes. Or if we would many many more off-road bikes. 

Offline st2sam

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2020, 06:50:34 AM »
DD, I always thought you were a wonderful ambassador for our sport.
(I was right.)

A big test for you both, please keep us posted with the progress.

It should be much more difficult here as well. Far too easy.
This ^^^

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Online Mrs. DantesDame

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2020, 09:18:35 AM »
I might have just found a bike for her  8)

I put out an APB on the Swiss motorcyclists FB page, asking if anyone had a lead on a beginner's bike. Just got a message from someone on there with a CAGIVA RAPTOR 650. I know nothing about this bike, but he's selling it cheap. He's also a very skilled mechanic, so I have no qualms about her buying it WRT mechanical soundness.

Let the games continue!  :popcorn:
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Online leeo45

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2020, 11:03:40 AM »
I might have just found a bike for her  8)

I put out an APB on the Swiss motorcyclists FB page, asking if anyone had a lead on a beginner's bike. Just got a message from someone on there with a CAGIVA RAPTOR 650. I know nothing about this bike, but he's selling it cheap. He's also a very skilled mechanic, so I have no qualms about her buying it WRT mechanical soundness.

Let the games continue!  :popcorn:

Saw a few of those in NL.   Seemed like nice bikes.   I can't comment on build quality.  I think they have the Suzuki SV650 engine so that part should be stone reliable.  However, it is also a pretty strong motor so I suspect it would put the bike in the Category A Unlimited license tier.   

Online Skee

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2020, 11:20:14 AM »
DD, I always thought you were a wonderful ambassador for our sport.

 :thumbsup:
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Offline Baxter

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2020, 01:08:23 PM »
It's great that you're helping her! 

Those Swiss exam testers must be a brave bunch if they're riding pillion on a noob's test ride!   :o
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.  --Douglas Adams

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2020, 12:55:49 PM »
Today we went shopping! There is a great shop 15 minutes' walk from my apartment, so we met up there and she put a bunch of helmets on her head. The shopkeeper was super helpful, and I tried to point why one helmet might cost more than another (vents, weight, wind noise, internal sun visor, etc.). In the end, she spent more money than she really wanted to, but she got a nice Shoei (GT Air). She is super happy with the purchase and even wore the helmet on the walk back to the apartment  :lol:

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After dinner she and I walked down to our garage where i sorted through our old gear. I got her outfitted with a pair of boots, pants, jacket and gloves. It is pretty much on "permanent loan" until she gets around to finding her own gear.

Saturday we'll go to Zürich where she'll make the decision on the Cagiva  :smiley_thumb:
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Online Skee

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2020, 01:40:49 PM »
Wait!  Motorcycle shops are open?   People are not wearing masks?   Where do you live again?

Notwithstanding, she will be very happy with that helmet in the long run.   

You are commended for helping someone learn to ride.  Not as easy as it sounds for either of you.
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Online Mrs. DantesDame

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2020, 01:52:01 PM »
Wait!  Motorcycle shops are open?   People are not wearing masks?   Where do you live again?

Paradise  :smoking:

Notwithstanding, she will be very happy with that helmet in the long run.   
That's what we told her. It came down to the Shoei and an HJC. Dan pointed out that if she got the Shoei, she'll never think about the HJC, but if she opted for the HJC, she'd always wonder about Shoei  ;D
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Online Smoothie

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2020, 06:07:41 PM »
Today we went shopping! There is a great shop 15 minutes' walk from my apartment, so we met up there and she put a bunch of helmets on her head. The shopkeeper was super helpful, and I tried to point why one helmet might cost more than another (vents, weight, wind noise, internal sun visor, etc.). In the end, she spent more money than she really wanted to, but she got a nice Shoei (GT Air). She is super happy with the purchase and even wore the helmet on the walk back to the apartment  :lol:

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After dinner she and I walked down to our garage where i sorted through our old gear. I got her outfitted with a pair of boots, pants, jacket and gloves. It is pretty much on "permanent loan" until she gets around to finding her own gear.

Saturday we'll go to Zürich where she'll make the decision on the Cagiva  :smiley_thumb:


What a cutie!!   Did she get one of those Rossi jerseys, too, or is it too soon?

Maybe it’s best to work up to that.   :bigok:



I have bought a lot of motorcycles and motorcycle gear in my life (the rest of my money I’ve just squandered).    I have never, ever, regretted buying quality gear regardless of price.    But I have regretted buying mediocre, inexpensive gear.

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Online Mrs. DantesDame

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2020, 11:15:57 AM »
Yesterday after work we took the train to Zürich (an hour's journey) to meet up with the seller and take possession  :naughty:

We had brought our gear in a couple of duffle bags, which then became one handy backpack for the return trip (no panniers on THIS bike!). As McCleary doesn't even know how start a motorcycle, I would be the one to ride it home, with her on the back.

Naturally I got lost trying to get us out of Zürich, but eventually we were on the motorway. As we didn't even pick up the bike until after 7pm, and it was another hour and a half to get home, we didn't have the luxury of the side roads.

The bike handled really well and we cruised along at the speed limit ( ), pulling into Mac's parking spot just as the sun was setting. It was still another 45 minute tram ride home, getting me to bed around 11 that night.

All-in-all, it was a successful trip!

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Tomorrow she will learn how to start the bike!  8)
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 12:19:20 PM by Mrs. DantesDame »
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Offline Baxter

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2020, 11:47:51 AM »
Yay!   :D
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.  --Douglas Adams

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2020, 12:00:44 PM »
exciting stuff.  can't wait to see it unfold.
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Online Skee

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2020, 02:20:49 PM »

Naturally I got lost trying to get us out of Zürich, but eventually...


Everyone gets lost in Zurich - it's urban legend - although GPS might be ruining that experience. 


Nicest starter bike ever!  :drool:

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Online viffergyrl

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2020, 02:27:53 PM »
Yay motorcycles!
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Online Smoothie

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2020, 11:02:36 PM »
Skee is right.   Nicest starter bike ever!   :chili: :banana:


Although XLR8 did start out on an FZ1.   Not that was necessarily wise for a starter bike.  :facepalm:
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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2020, 04:02:19 AM »
Last night went well - and ended abruptly 


I rode over to Mac's place and then we doubled up on her bike to a local parking lot. I started slow with very remedial reviews of the bike, the controls, what to do, what not to do.

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She played with the friction zone for a while, we talked about covering the front brake, and eventually she was riding around the oval parking lot in 1st gear, stopping every 30' or so to practice the stop/start.

She dropped the bike at the end of the parking lot, clipping off the end of the clutch lever.
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And then she dropped it again at the same point, but this time the gear shifter broke, thus ending her practice session.

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I think I know what the problem was with this end of the parking lot, but unfortunately I didn't see it while we were there. To be honest, I was (am) nervous about teaching her to ride. I wonder how good of a job I am doing, what I am overlooking, what I am not doing right.

I wish that she had the money to take private lessons from an accredited trainer. She did sign up for a course, but the first available isn't until September 1st. Now she is trying to find a replacement shift lever so that we can resume instruction.  :smiley_thumb:
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Online Skee

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2020, 08:42:43 AM »
I’ve tried teaching a few people to ride. (At their request; I’m no pro.)  It Is challenging.  Some people just get on and go.  One friend was never even able to get it into first gear, even with me pushing.  (Today he is a noted heart specialist. Different people have different abilities.) That is why I admire your effort. It ain’t easy.   Don’t give up too soon.  We ALL make low speed drops. 

Find a bigger parking lot - I know Switzerland right - where she can bail mid-turn. Practice Circles & Figure-8s staring with large turns and gradually decrease radius.  Builds coordination.  Use parking lines as imaginary barriers.  Start with a large area and work down.  Easier if bike is set idle at a slow walking pace when in first gear, if you have the ability to temporarily alter idle speed. 

Then work on tightening the radius until she builds confidence in low speed quick directional changes.
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Online nickybcareful

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2020, 09:08:16 AM »
If you google "motorcycle lesson don't use front brake in slow turns", you will find some videos that might be helpful.

This video also might come in handy
https://youtu.be/gnu6YxMJIhU

Good luck, and don't give up!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2020, 09:21:32 AM by nickybcareful »

Online Skee

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2020, 10:07:49 AM »
Good point Nick.  Now go make a Negroni or an Aperol spritz and pretend you are in Italy.   :facepalm:  Won’t be meeting in Ohio this year either.  If we’re lucky, DD will post photos from her first international ride.
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"The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore."   Vincent van Gogh

Offline CLAY

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2020, 08:55:18 PM »
Goodonya for giving it a go- she'll get there!  I helped two people- not from zero, but with road riding and some low speed stuff.  I too would recommend staying off the front brake on a slow turn- for one thing there's enough going on at low speeds on the handlebars to keep track of.  Plus handling.



Keep at it!   :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2020, 09:32:33 AM »
I've taught quite a few people to ride with much success.  One of the first things I teach is annoyingly sciency for a non science guy but it's about kenetic (or potential or whatever) energy and newton's basic laws.  An object in motion and all that.  I try to emphasize the fact that just because you are able to slow or stop the front wheel, there is still a great deal of energy from the rest of the bike and your body and whatever else that's along for the ride that wants to keep going.  And it will take advantage of the slightest little thing and use it as an opportunity to try to keep on moving.  If you're perfectly straight up and the wheel is perfectly straight, it has almost no hope.  However, if you're wheel is turned a tad or you've leaned just a smidge in either direction, that energy will capitalize on that and use it to find a path for movement.  If you're wheel is no longer moving, then the only other option is down.  But the energy is still there until the complete cessation of movement has been realized.  I use a barely moving non running bike as an example.  I have the rider paddle toward me and make them hit the front brake with the bars perfectly straight and then with the bars turned slightly in each direction to drive the point home.  If there's a hill, then a bit faster but still on non running bike.  You can do this many times in a short distance.  Then I have them do that with the rear brake and note the difference.  Final objective is to teach the braking maneuver in such a way that the rider will end up slowly coming completely off the front brake just prior to the stop.  I explain that this is just a learning tool and that as soon as the body mechanics of braking get better, (and the falling stops) then the life saving front brake drills will continue and get harder and harder.  :)  Of course there is also the pitch, camber, and surface you're riding on that can lend to opportunities for energy overflow antics. 

But I like to do this before the bike ever gets started because I think it's the most important thing to know.  The going is easy. 

Not a sermon, just a thought.   ;D
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Online Mrs. DantesDame

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2020, 11:10:57 AM »
I've already told her that we need to find a bigger playground - and you're right: that's not easy to do in Switzerland  :o

Yeah, the front brake. I was so focused on how "not to grab the front brake but be ready" that I wasn't thinking that she's in first gear barely moving and the front brake is pretty much useless at this point. I've already mentioned this to her for when she gets back on the saddle.  :smiley_thumb:

The thing is, I've taught other people how to ride "from zero", but it was so long ago, I can't even recall the situations :shrug:

I'm glad that might have found someone else to help out instructing. I think that having two points of view is good. If we say the same thing? Then it must be right! If we have opposing views? Then it is time to do some research and figure out "why?"


Right now we're at a pause because she needs to replace the shifter and then she is heading out of town until next week. I am hoping that by then the weather is more tolerable (Saturday is going to be 91F :facepalm: )
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Online Mrs. DantesDame

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 11:01:44 AM »
Shifter has been replaced and the learning continues!

Today was forecasted to be 32C, so the plan was an early start. Eh, 9:30 is early for a Saturday, right?  :redface:  Dan offered to come with me for this lesson and I'm glad he did, as he is much more "no nonsense" and will put her through drills that I would probably not consider.

We swung by Mac's apartment where I left my bike, doubled up on hers, and then Dan followed us to a nearby parking lot that I HOPED would be accessible and empty. It was almost perfect! There were some parked cars, but there were also 3-4 people throughout the morning who had come here for driving practice. We had found the Secret Place  8)

Dan and stood at opposite ends of the side lot and gave her instructions for about three hours. She did fantastic!  ;D

I didn't bring my camera and didn't take many photos with my phone because I didn't want to distract her from the lessons. I apologize for the potato quality  :redface:

New jacket!
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Early in the day, just getting the hang of riding through a corner (after a lot of duck-walking)
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After a couple of breaks to reconvene and go over what she's doing and answering any questions, the jacket was removed. It was getting hotter...

Dan encouraging her at a stopping exercise
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We ended the lesson with her following Dan around on his bike, which worked out really well.
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We're going to get together again tomorrow evening and add to her confidence and skills  :smoking:
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Online Skee

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 02:39:56 PM »
I am a little surprised to see she chose a yellow jacket.  I was under the impression yellow was unpopular because police wear it.  Is that attitude changing?

She's lucky to have 2 experienced coaches.
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Learning to Ride
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 03:13:53 PM »
This is brilliant!    :bigok:
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Online Mrs. DantesDame

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 03:14:51 PM »
I am a little surprised to see she chose a yellow jacket.  I was under the impression yellow was unpopular because police wear it.  Is that attitude changing?

I have never heard this comment here. In fact, hi-viz stuff is incredibly popular here, and more likely to be seen than your basic black textile.
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Online Skee

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Re: Learning to Ride
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 05:38:42 PM »
I am a little surprised to see she chose a yellow jacket.  I was under the impression yellow was unpopular because police wear it.  Is that attitude changing?

I have never heard this comment here. In fact, hi-viz stuff is incredibly popular here, and more likely to be seen than your basic black textile.

May have just been the person I was speaking with or the country I was in at the time. 
"The mistake you cannot make is to judge the past through the eyes of the present.  Judge the past on its own terms."  
João Zilhão on the Assimilation Model of Human Origin

"The fishermen know that the sea is dangerous and the storm terrible, but they have never found these dangers sufficient reason for remaining ashore."   Vincent van Gogh