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Author Topic: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.  (Read 121 times)

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Online Mr. Whippy

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I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« on: October 12, 2016, 03:07:36 PM »
Personally, I've never handled one, loaded one or shot one.  My brother in law is coming out for muzzleloading season and need an education.

From what I've read, it sounds like a bunch of different ways to load and fire these things.

Online Virginian

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2016, 04:46:22 PM »
Honestly, most of them use pyrodex pellets and a sabot bullet. It makes it idiot proof for loading and if you purchase a BP rifle get one that uses 209 shotgun primers. They are far more reliable in my opinion. I don't know where you live but if you in my vicinity please feel free to reach out to me and I'll walk you through the process. I shoot modern bp, cap and ball and flintlock.

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Online CLAY

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2016, 10:12:49 PM »
What would you like to know?  Are you going to buy one?  I've been using them for 30 years and have taken many deer with them of various types.  I've got a vouple right now- a traditional looking one (albeit in stainless and synthetic) and a state of the art inline crazy accurate one.  I started with a T/C Hawken- a gorgeous gun that required lots of cleaning.
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Online Mr. Whippy

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2016, 07:12:13 AM »
You know, it sort of depends.  My BIL is bringing his 2 out (which of course he'll tell me are the best mix of economy and function).  I'll shoot with him, but trying to get accurate, real world information on things as personal as long gun preferences is tough to do on the internet.  Heck, just try to follow the SxS vs UO drivel for shotguns (which I know a lot more about than muzzleloaders) and I still have no clue which is really better or if it actually makes any difference.

I assume it's going to be like a cumbersome single shot rifle, slow to reload and more stuff in pockets to reload, but aside from loading mechanism, probably as accurate as a rifle, maybe more kick, I don't really know.  I don't even know what I should know about them, like why so many ways to load the powder.  Why would anyone use patch and ball over a traditional slug, types of breech, etc. 

Since I'm in MD, (where there are very few hunters, fewer gunshops that know anything really about muzzleloaders and a state government that acknowledges a serious deer problem but is extremely hostile to all gun owners), I don't really know anyone I can ask about this stuff.

Online Wesley

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2016, 07:45:50 AM »
I have a Traditions Deerhunter .50 Cal rifle.  https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/product/Deerhunter-rifle-kit-.50-cal-percussion

It is a kit gun that you assemble and finish the stock with whatever stain and varnish you want.  I think I was 13 when I built mine.  A good project for a kid that age.  Mine has always been used for target practice and shooting rabbits.

I've always used patches and balls because I always like the history tied in with these guns.  I'm guessing balls are cheaper than sabots too.  I talked with Clay earlier this year about shooting with sabots--I've never tried but would like to.  The extent to which it kicks can also depend on how much powder you put in. 

It may seem cumbersome and slow at first, but with practice it becomes more efficient.  They have a sense of delayed gratification--while the steps for loading take a few extra seconds, your anticipation builds and when that shot fires--whoa!  It is a beautiful thing accompanied by a wonderful sound. 

Online Mr. Whippy

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2016, 03:36:37 PM »
So, watching a bunch of videos, I still don't understand pelletized vs loose powder, slugs vs conical ball vs patch and ball or the real reason to select one type of inline over another.  Sidelock looks to be for a more antique feel, but probably can be as accurate.  Can all styles use pelletized powder? Same question for projectiles. Lots of variables.

Online Black Hills

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2016, 04:07:59 PM »
depends what you want to do with it. A flintlock is damn near impossible to be accurate with for me. The momentary mini-explosion in front of my face before it fires makes me flinch. Percussion cap is what I would recommend. (plus you only need one type of powder). Traditional black powder is a PIA, fouling means you spend more time cleaning than shooting. AS recommended use the modern stuff and enjoy. It is a good time and gives you new appreciation for the old timers. Growing up my uncle was big into the old mountain man rendezvous scene. My brother and I spent many nights in a tipi or Wall tent, even in below zero temps. all kinds of crazy shooting events, tomahawk and knife throwing, it was a blast! we both had muzzle loaders before any "modern" gun. you may just fall in love with it.

Online CLAY

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2016, 07:47:16 PM »
I'll try to summarize:

A big discussion comes down to what your purpose and thought is with the muzzleloader.  Some guys like the traditional aspect of it- using older style guns, flintlocks, and balls.  Other guys use slightly newer methods using percussion caps (which are like a primer on a cartidge) and balls, or maxi-balls.  A maxi-ball is a more conical designed bullet that generally carries much more energy farther downrange, and usually is more accurate since it engages the rifling better and has better rotational energy- I'm not sure if that's the correct term, but it has a better ballistic coefficient- it's longer but the same diameter.  Other guys use saboted modern bullets, like from a .44 or a .45, and these are generally the most accurate.

Then you get to the modern muzzloaders- they are usually in-line with a shotgun primer at the rear and use non-sulfur powders either in pellet form of powder form.  The sulfur in traditional blackpowder or even lesser amounts in Pyrodex are pretty caustic causing rust to easily form.  The problem is that non-sulfur powders (like Triple7  or pelletized powders) are generally harder to ignite, so a standard percussion cap might not set it off under more extreme conditions, like high humidity.  The shotgun primer creates way more directed heat to ignite better.

The pellets (image link: https://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/880x660/Primary/441/441251.jpg) are usually 50 grains each with a hole down the middle.  That way when the primer goes off it fires down the middle hole igniting the powder more evenly promoting a more consistent charge and better accuracy.  At least that's the idea.

 Most .50 caliber muzzleloaders run around 100 grains of powder, either measured out with a powder measure then poured in, or two pellets are dropped down the barrel.  Magnum muzzleloaders can use 3 pellets (150 grains).

My modern magnum muzzleloader uses 3 triple 7 pellets (150 grains), a modern saboted .44 high performance pistol bullet, and with a rest can group a 3 shot pattern in a half-dollar at a hundred yards.  It's good out to about 200 yards, my longest shot was about 170. 

With a muzzleloader, obviously you load down the muzzle.  How you do that depends on a few things.

Some guys are real traditionalists- flintlock (as Black Hills mentions, nostalgic but a PIA) only.  A flint lock uses the sparks of flint striking steel to spark the finer powder in the pan, which follows a hole into the breech where the main charge lies.  To load this weapon, you pour the powder down, then add a patch over the end (usually greased somehow), then slide the ball in.  You push it home with the ramrod.  At that point some guys slam the rod home until it gets a bounce- letting you know it is firmly seated.  Other guys push it in all the way and have a mark on the rode so you know when it's down all the way.

The problem with the ball, is that while it is traditional, it is fairly inaccurate and loses energy quickly.  Hence the maxi-ball or saboted bullets.

What you use kind of depends what you are after.  I'm pretty much looking for more time in the woods and more venison, so I usually use my magnum muzzleloader, a Thompson/Center Omega with a bullet-drop compensating scope that is made for that load.  I also have a Thompson/Center Grey Hawk- a traditional-styled side percussion powder loader, but even in that I use saboted bullets of less weight on front of 90 grains of Pyrodex (that has been the most accurate load with that gun).  I use that once in awhile and have taken a few deer with it.  With that gun I am good to about 100 yards, but it has iron sights.  I usually use it in close-quarters hunting, like brushy areas.

They also make them in larger calibers (.54) or smaller calibers (.45 and smaller for small game).

Once you shoot one a few times, you get pretty proficient at loading, and as Wesley mentioned,it's not a big deal.  I can probably reload in less than a minute.

I'll attach a video of me shooting a deer with the muzzle loader below:


You'll note the vast amount of smoke with a muzzleloader.  Generally you lose sight of the deer, especially if it's at any long range.  Of course 777 and pyrodex create far less smoke than real blackpowder.  That really fires out a cloud.
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Online Mr. Whippy

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2016, 08:15:01 AM »
That's really helpful Clay.   Thanks   :beerchug:

I'll see what I think of using a muzzleloader first, but my first impression is I'd go with a modern inline break action muzzleloader and use pelletized powder with modern style bullet.  Since this is all completely new to me, I don't think going totally primative will have a special appeal, but I guess we'll see. :)

Online Black Hills

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2016, 12:21:47 PM »
One other tip, make sure there are no glowing embers in the barrel before you dump the powder in or will be missing eye brows..  Don't ask how I know.

Online bedlamite

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2016, 12:45:33 PM »
I don't have any direct experience with them, but I do have two friends in SASS that shoot black powder. They both recommend using real black powder and cleaning with HOT water first to dissolve the corrosive salts, both have said that the black substitutes like Pyrodex and Triple 7 are a PITA to clean out.

Of course, it has been suggested that they may have inhaled too much smoke ...
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Online CLAY

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Re: I need to learn more about muzzleloaders.
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2016, 02:10:45 PM »
I don't have any direct experience with them, but I do have two friends in SASS that shoot black powder. They both recommend using real black powder and cleaning with HOT water first to dissolve the corrosive salts, both have said that the black substitutes like Pyrodex and Triple 7 are a PITA to clean out.

Of course, it has been suggested that they may have inhaled too much smoke ...

With modern cleaners they really aren't an issue.  I use a cleaner, then dish soap.  Blackpowder is super corrosive- if you shoot it, you need to clean it.  With mine I load it, carry it (sometimes for the full two weeks of the season), then shoot it at the end.  I have shot it the first day, reloaded, and then shot it on the last day of the season and cleaned it after.  You can't do that with blackpowder.  I'd say there's a pretty big difference between SASS and using a modern muzzleloader with the latest technology for hunting- so based on thier use, it makes sense- they probably clean every time they shoot, which doesn't always happen when hunting.

It just depends what you want and how much you want to spend as well.  My brother has a lower-end CVA inline muzzle loader that in stainless- it was cheap and shoots accurately out to 100 yards NO problem.
If you drop the coin, I really would recommend stainless- it make cleanup much easier.  There's scads of good names out there- Thompson/Center is what I have, but there are many good ones out there. Things I'd make sure of:  It uses shotgun primers- and it can go to 150 grains.  You might never use it and stay at 100, but you have it if you ever want it.

If you have any more questions, let me know- I'd be glad to help.
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