Author Topic: More computer questions: adding SATA drives (Read 11343 times)

CLAY · « **on:** January 21, 2014, 02:36:53 PM »

So in working on building my new desktop machine, I have a SATA question. It seems to have 3 SATA ports on the motherboard- one for various "top-of-tower" USB ports and such, one for a 30G SSD, and one for the DVD burner.

Can I add more? Do they make "splitter" cables? I know on the old PATA cables you could just get one with 2 (or more) plugs on one cable and add your hard drives. How do I add a new 2TB HD to this thing with all the red SATA cables and ports used?

Thanks!

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2014, 03:00:23 PM »

You can get add-in SATA cards that slot into the motherboard like a sound card or video card does.

This one adds 4 internal SATA ports. All you need is a vacant PCI slot.

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CLAY · « **Reply #2 on:** January 21, 2014, 03:18:17 PM »

Sweet. I have that. Thanks!

Jim · « **Reply #3 on:** January 21, 2014, 04:34:39 PM »

Also consider moving lower bandwidth drives (DVD, etc.) to the "paddle card" and keep high bandwidth (fast) drives to native SATA ports.

The one that goes to the "top of tower" is likely for eSATA (external). Consider if you'd ever use that and just stick your 2TB onto that port.

You're saying "new system"... you already purchased this mobo, yes? If yes, you're working with the board as-is, if not, consider a board with more SATA ports.

CLAY · « **Reply #4 on:** January 21, 2014, 06:30:12 PM »

Quote from: Jim on January 21, 2014, 04:34:39 PM

Also consider moving lower bandwidth drives (DVD, etc.) to the "paddle card" and keep high bandwidth (fast) drives to native SATA ports.

The one that goes to the "top of tower" is likely for eSATA (external). Consider if you'd ever use that and just stick your 2TB onto that port.

You're saying "new system"... you already purchased this mobo, yes? If yes, you're working with the board as-is, if not, consider a board with more SATA ports.

That's a great idea. I can't see using the SATA drive on top any time soon.

It's a used machine I got from school. We are going to sell them off, so I have been wiping the hard drives and the tech team was cool with me keeping one. Here are the stats- I'm curious as to what you guys think about the system:

AMD Phenom(tm) II 945 Processor 3.01 GHz
8GB (2.5GB USABLE) RAM
32 BIT OS (windows 7)
It has 4 ATI Radeon HD3450 cards in it- I am currently running 2 ASUS 24" widescreen monitors.
It has a 30GB SSD in it, which currently only has 6 GB left after the OS, Office, and Winzip install.

We used them as a linux quad unit- one tower controlling 4 systems. That was decided before my time there It never worked properly, so this year we ditched them and went with the new lab (rolling back to Windows 7 as you saw in other posts) with 1 desktop per station.

I am coming from a small desktop unit with a Pentium 4 3.4 GHz with 2GB of RAM and a 75GB HD

This one is MUCH faster than my old one- although I see the old one had a P4 running 3.4-GHz and the new one is 3.01GHz?

I mostly did it because I couldn't process HD video on my old one- I should be able to with this one, I am hoping. I plan to install the 2TB internal HD and keep the 1 TB external HD as back ups for my wife's laptop, and also use the 2 TB for video storage, etc.

Once again I am no EOE. Any thoughts on this system? Pros? Cons? Things I should do? I could harvest another 30G SSD if I wanted or needed it.

Jim · « **Reply #5 on:** January 21, 2014, 07:23:28 PM »

For CPU "speed" ratings, use this URL:
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php

An Intel P4 @ 3.4GHZ (at the faster end of the Pentium 4 line) shows a Passmark CPU mark of 403.

The AMD Phenom(tm) II 945 Processor 3.01 GHz has a rating of 3741 (chart doesn't list the exact name and has "AMD Phenom II X4 945" as the closest match).

A higher CPU rating is faster.

As for the lower clock speed being faster: Think of clock speed as engine redline. What is in the name (Pentium 4, AMD Phenom II X4) is the engine classification - think 2-cylinder, 4-cylinder, 6, 8, 10, etc. One needs to consider both variables to realize overall "power".

In CPU's, the clock speed race rather hit the high end in the Pentium 4 era. Chips thereafter went lower clock speed and added "cores" (more cylinders).

If you could convert from your 32-bit OS to a 64-bit OS you may well be able to utilize the full 8GB of RAM the system has. Sadly, there is no "convert" you have to reinstall from scratch if you wish to swap to 64-bit, but it seems you're at the front end where it might be a consideration.

For more OS drive space, a device to consider (ties in if you move to 64-bit...)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA2W00ZD1548

CLAY · « **Reply #6 on:** January 21, 2014, 07:26:35 PM »

I might do that then. Will having a 64 bit OS affect other programs? In other words, can I still use everything I currently use?

Jim · « **Reply #7 on:** January 21, 2014, 07:31:39 PM »

Quote from: CLAY on January 21, 2014, 07:26:35 PM

I might do that then. Will having a 64 bit OS affect other programs? In other words, can I still use everything I currently use?

"Generally", yes.

It is quite rare for me to encounter a compatibility issue with an app (more likely to encounter it with an older piece of hardware - scanner, digital camera via USB connection.

If you are concerned, research the apps compatibility via the vendor website. "backwards compatibility" is Microsoft's 900LB gorilla.

CLAY · « **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2014, 07:38:18 PM »

But, now would be the time to do it I think- I'm still running both machines and I'm just starting with the newer one. I'd rather do it right right away.

PatM · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2014, 09:49:28 PM »

Jim gave you good advice. Yes now is the time to install 64 bits.
The only issue I found was some 32 bits programs ran slower on 64 bit than the same software would if it ran on 32 bit OS. But that will still be a lot faster than your old PC. IMO not really an issue.

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #10 on:** January 21, 2014, 10:01:09 PM »

The 30 Gb SSD is going to be a problem. If you can get more of the identical drives for free from the school, RAID them to create one "bigger" drive for your OS. You'll really need the extra SATA ports for that.

And your processor is 64 bit capable, so installing a 64 bit OS will remove the memory address limitation, but it depends on the MOBO's chipset exactly how much memory it will handle.

http://products.amd.com/en-us/DesktopCPUDetail.aspx?id=534&f1=&f2=&f3=&f4=&f5=&f6=&f7=&f8=&f9=&f10=&f11=&f12=

Do you know the MOBO model, or the chipset number?

I upgraded the hell out of an old 2005 vintage Precision 370 workstation for my sister. Slammed in a P4 3.8 processor, 4 Gb RAM, and an HD3450 graphics card, then installed Win7 64 bit. It runs like a champ. Snappy and lively, no lagging or waiting. All she uses it for is email and websurfing, so it doesn't have to be anything incredible, but it is performing better than I could have imagined. Pretty good WEI ratings too.

CLAY · « **Reply #11 on:** January 21, 2014, 10:16:24 PM »

Can I set it up so the OS runs on the SSD (or two of them) and the 2TB HD is for storing all files, etc?

Can I add and set up the RAID disk (maybe with 2- 30GB SSD's?) after I have installed Windows 64bit?

I hope so. I am posting this right now from Win 7 64 bit on that machine.

BTW- I see what you mean- this thing really scoots right now!

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2014, 10:20:13 PM »

I'm not a RAID expert, but I think you have to set up the RAID configuration before installing the OS.

Then, after the OS is up and running, you could physically add the 2 Tb drive and designate it as storage only.

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2014, 10:22:54 PM »

You want RAID 0 for your two 30 Gb drives to "appear" as one 60 Gb drive for the OS only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_RAID_levels#RAID_0

http://www.pcworld.com/article/132877/RAID.html

I'm NOT Carl · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2014, 10:35:07 PM »

Only use raid 0 if you don't care about the data on it. That's perfect for temporary stuff but not important stuff.

Use raid 1 (mirror). Slower writes but faster reads.

Carl

Jim · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2014, 10:49:06 PM »

1) I'd keep the OS/Apps drive on the mobo SATA port. You want the speed it offers. Those ports are likely SATAII (running at 3.0Gbps) http://kb.sandisk.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8142 whereas if you stick a SATA/RAID card into a PCI slot, then PCI will be the slow link in the chain. PCI's bandwith can be considered 133MBs (1Gbps), much slower than native, common, SATA II. It's highly unlikely the MOBO has SATA III @ 6.0Gbps.

2) RAID 0 is frowned upon as if one drive has an issue you lose all of it, though, if you're only doing OS/APPS, those items do not change often such that an image backup (Win7 Image backup works well) could be sufficient. Stick the image backups onto your 2TB data drive, once a week backup or every other week is perhaps good enough. Daily backups for data from your 2TB to "something". Otherwise, consider the 128GB SSD listed above, if you wish to spend the coin. As an aside, I installed a fresh Win7x64 onto an 4GB, Intel i5 laptop. Power button to "usable" was ~42/45 seconds - with a mechanical hard drive. Cloned over to an SSD... 15 seconds. [EDIT: If your mobo SATA does not do RAID, I would NOT use a paddle card RAID as the PCI slowness would be undesirable - get a larger single SSD and hang it off of a MOBO SATA port. Additionally, you might not be able to put a boot partition onto a paddle card RAID partition.]

If it were my setup...
128GB SSD for OS & APPS
2TB mechanical for Page File, Temps, Data.

I'd partition the 2TB into perhaps two partitions. The first perhaps 20GB and the second the remaining capacity. Onto the first partition, which I'd "rename" as drive "T" or "P" (move it up the alphabet, out of the way), I'd put the page file - removing any page file on the SSD/C-partition. I'd also redirect temporary files for the OS, User, web browsers to this partition. Reasons: With the small partition at the outside (first partition) of the 2TB drive, it'd be as fast as that 2TB could give. Second, SSD's don't like "change". They have a finite write life, whereas a mechanical doesn't mind. Now, I do not know the speed diff between having those items on the SSD vs. mechanical, but my guess is that it'd be marginal. FWIW, this is my current setup for my desktop.

While on the topics of access speeds for files, these two utilities are a consideration (both directly compete w/ MS utilities - Disk Cleanup & Defragment but go beyond what MS tends):
- cCleaner (crap cleaner) - delete junk / temp files before defragmenting / optimizing [go into the "builds" section of piriform.com and download the clean version without the added junk toolbar]
- MyDefrag (www.MyDefrag.com) - prioritizes files / reorganizes files for speedy retrieval (via mechanical drive). Author states it is as safe as the MS Defrag as his program simply tells MS Defrag what to put where. MS Defrag simply defrag's and his goes a step further to optimize. It also has provision for SSD's.

I hope y'all accept what I type as positive and not hear me as preaching - no one can know it all in the tech realm - this is where I spend my time so it's daily task for me.

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2014, 11:22:23 PM »

Quote from: dm_gsx1300r on January 21, 2014, 10:35:07 PM

Only use raid 0 if you don't care about the data on it. That's perfect for temporary stuff but not important stuff.

Use raid 1 (mirror). Slower writes but faster reads.

Carl

Except RAID 1 won't make his two 30 gb drives into one "bigger" 60 Gb drive for his C: to put the OS on. Which is what he wants to do.

His "important stuff" will be stored on a 3rd 2 Tb internal storage drive, away from the RAID 0 drives.

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2014, 11:28:00 PM »

Quote from: Jim on January 21, 2014, 10:49:06 PM

1) I'd keep the OS/Apps drive on the mobo SATA port. You want the speed it offers. Those ports are likely SATAII (running at 3.0Gbps) http://kb.sandisk.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/8142 whereas if you stick a SATA/RAID card into a PCI slot, then PCI will be the slow link in the chain. PCI's bandwith can be considered 133MBs (1Gbps), much slower than native,

If it were my setup...
128GB SSD for OS & APPS

#1 above, good idea to use the MOBO SATA ports.
Plug the 2 Tb storage drive into the PCI SATA expansion card, yes.

#2 above, he mentioned wanting to use another FREE 30 Gb drive from another school computer to double the C: drive he has now, which is only 30 Gb and has 24Gb on it already with just the OS and Office installs (fresh).

SO, from what I read, buying a brand new SSD wasn't something he was considering.

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2014, 11:32:59 PM »

Another thought is to use all 3 SATA ports on the MOBO and RAID 0 all of them, if you get TWO more FREE 30 Gb SSD's.

Then you get a 90 Gb C: which should be adequate if you don't load it up with crapware and tons of programs. Keep a lean install and you should have enough free space for awhile.

Yes, I know, I know, it's beginning to look a bit like a christmas tree inside his tower now, but hey, he said it was being built from -->FREE SALVAGED<-- bits.

Hopefully you have enough 3.5" bays in the tower to accommodate 4 drives.

3 for C: and the 1 mechanical drive for storage, and enough power plugs sprouting off your PSU, although you can get cheaters for those to plug in more stuff, as long as you're not overtaxing the PSU. Usually a cheater plugs into the (white) Molex plugs and converts to a (black) SATA style power plug on the other end.

There are calculators online to figure out the load on your PSU and how big it needs to be.

Such as: http://support.asus.com/powersupply.aspx

Also plug your CD/DVD drive into the PCI expansion card as well, to free up all 3 SATA ports on the MOBO.

Jim · « **Reply #19 on:** January 21, 2014, 11:40:52 PM »

Quote from: Veefer800canuck on January 21, 2014, 11:32:59 PM

Yes, I know, I know, it's beginning to look a bit like a christmas tree inside his tower now, but hey, he said it was being built from -->FREE SALVAGED<-- bits.

Hopefully you have enough 3.5" bays in the tower to accommodate 4 drives.

Well, SSD's to the rescue - stack 3 SSD's into one "conventional" bay, additionally, the three SSD's might equate to ONE mechanical for power draw. Double-stick tape for SSD mounting...

Frankencase!

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #20 on:** January 21, 2014, 11:42:50 PM »

mucking about with the PSU calculator, IF I got all your components right, you'd need a honking 700w PSU to feed the 4 hard drives and 4 video cards.

Drops to about 400 watts if you're just using 1 hard drive and 1 vid card.

You'll have to play with it and see, I may have not gotten everything 100% correct as to your specs.

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #21 on:** January 21, 2014, 11:44:38 PM »

Good to hear that the SSd's don't draw as much power, maybe that'll help.

He didn't say if they were 2.5" or 3.5" form factor SSD's.

Being they were originally spec'd to be school lab computers (workstations) I'm imagining the cases are gonna be large with plenty of bays.

?

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #22 on:** January 21, 2014, 11:51:19 PM »

Hold the phone, I came up with a MUCH MORE DETAILED PSU calculator with better options that should give more accurate results.

http://www.extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine

Looks like 400 watts will do, again, if I inputted your stuff properly.

CLAY · « **Reply #23 on:** January 22, 2014, 07:44:04 AM »

OK- I have further stats on the system. Here is what I have:

AMD Phenom IIx4 945 processor 3.01 GHz
8GB RAM
1 (or 2) 30G SSD HD
4-ATI Radeon HD 3450 graphics cards
ASUS M4A79 Deluxe MB
700 or 750w power supply (I could choose either tower)

So, starting from scratch, how should I set this thing up? I'd rather not spend a ton of cash (although I do plan to buy the 2TB hard drive).

I have one at home running Win 7 x64 now, but I can simply set up another one and swap it out when it's ready (I have about 12 of these things to play with) and wipe the HD on the one at home when I'm done.

Thoughts? I hope the motherboard gives a better picture. It seems to have 3 SATA outs.

Pictures for reference. This one has two video cards, but most have 4. I haven't cleaned this one, so it's filthy:
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10 bays? Plenty of room.

spinalator · « **Reply #24 on:** January 22, 2014, 10:21:33 AM »

Are you setting up an XBMC multimedia server for the house?

CLAY · « **Reply #25 on:** January 22, 2014, 10:45:29 AM »

Nope- a desktop machine for file storage, HD video editing, etc. I will be storing digital movies on it that I can access via the Blu-ray player and the network then watch through the TV, but not a dedicated media server.

Jim · « **Reply #26 on:** January 22, 2014, 10:47:37 AM »

I have a question, and perhaps you've already made a change, or it's possibly symantics... You keep saying (4) video cards. In the above pictures I see only two cards. Did you already remove two? If not, then are you coming to the (4) number due to having (4) video output ports? I kick the stone as four cards is not common and four cards would have a greater power supply impact.

It also looks like you have 6 empty drive bays, giving you a lot of mounting space - though you may need to buy drive sleds/holders for the specific bays.

Additionally, you may well be able to negate the PCI SATA card mentioned earlier in the thread. This mobo has "5 x SATA 3 Gb/s ports Support RAID 0,1,5,10,JBOD" internal SATA ports in addition to one eSATA port. Therefore you should be able to utilize MOBO RAID 0 for two SSD's. Windows would see that one 60GB partition for booting.

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/M4A79_Deluxe/#specifications

CLAY · « **Reply #27 on:** January 22, 2014, 01:10:30 PM »

This tower only has 2 cards in it- the other cards are on the shelf. Some have 2 cards, some have 4.

One SATA port is hardwired off the MB in the back, but there are 4 availible (one for the ESATA on top, one for the SSD, one for the DVD, one open). That should save me the SATA card, since I can disconnect the ESATA on top.

So- let me know how this sounds:
2-30G SSD HD's (they are 2.5" from factor) set as RAID 0
1 2TB HD for all the apps and files, many of which will be backed up to a 1TB external HD
2 of the video cards, 2 kept on the shelf just in case (I will probably never use 4).
8 GB of RAM
It already has a 750 W power supply.

Win7 x64.

I should then only need to purchase the 2 TB HD.

Does that sounds like the optimum configuration given what I have?

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #28 on:** January 22, 2014, 05:07:42 PM »

Oh yeah, no issues whatsoever with a 750 watt PSU. I'd take that one.

Tons of room for hard drives in those cases.

Myself, I would go with THREE 30 GB SSD's in RAID 0, for a total of 90 Gb C: drive, all connected to the MOBO ports. If they're free, why not.

That way, you won't run out of room as long as you keep your C: tidy.

Then you can connect your 2 Tb and CD/DVD drive to the add-in SATA expansion card we talked about earlier.

You'd have plenty of power to run the 4 video cards, though as you said, with a dual monitor setup, 2 cards would work fine.

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #29 on:** January 22, 2014, 05:12:55 PM »

Do you know the chipset ID on the motherboard, to see how much memory it can use?

I assume since they were shipped with 8 Gb, it can use it, with a 64 Gb OS, but you never know.

Crucial.com has a system memory scanner that will tell you how much memory you currently have, and how much the MOBO will support, as a maximum value.

Jim · « **Reply #30 on:** January 22, 2014, 07:13:43 PM »

Quote from: CLAY on January 22, 2014, 01:10:30 PM

One SATA port is hardwired off the MB in the back, but there are 4 availible (one for the ESATA on top, one for the SSD, one for the DVD, one open).

I'm thinking you have one more SATA port that you didn't realize you had... Or my reading ability is missing the mark (not the first time!! LOL)

Negating the "out the back" eSATA port, you have five internal use SATA ports. Three of the five are individual "outward" facing connectors while the remaining two are right next to the set of three and are in one plastic block and are "forward" facing, which makes them somewhat easy to overlook.

CLAY · « **Reply #31 on:** January 22, 2014, 07:20:09 PM »

Bingo. That's it. What I'm going to do is ride on in this one at home while I build the other.

So does this sound like a good plan?

2-30G SSD HD's (they are 2.5" from factor) set as RAID 0 (I can't get an unlimited amount- just one more)
1 2TB HD for all the apps and files, many of which will be backed up to a 1TB external HD
2 of the video cards, 2 kept on the shelf just in case (I will probably never use 4).
8 GB of RAM- I could upgrade to 16 GB, but I'm not sure if that's needed now. I ran the Crucial.com scanner and that's what it told me- up to 16 GB
It already has a 750 W power supply.
Win7 x64.

I should then only need to purchase the 2 TB HD.

Jim · « **Reply #32 on:** January 22, 2014, 07:35:10 PM »

Sounds good - git'r done.

As for more than 8GB - that's something you can easily decide (and change) at a later date - if at all.

From the pix and spec's - you'll enjoy a nice system.

CLAY · « **Reply #33 on:** January 27, 2014, 07:31:32 PM »

Tiger direct box came in today. Last post from the old setup- we'll see what the new brings!

CLAY · « **Reply #34 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:23:36 PM »

We're live. However at the beginning it asked me which disk to install on- it showed both. Now the 2TB HD doesn't show up. Any ideas?

Jim · « **Reply #35 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:27:08 PM »

Start > diskmgmt.msc > enter
Expand the screen to easily see all drive info.
ALT-PrintScreen
Start > paint (or mspaint) > enter
CTRL-V to paste the screen shot from Disk Management
Save the paint file.
Upload it here.

CLAY · « **Reply #36 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:33:25 PM »

Got it. Note to self: Google it first.

Thanks for all the help. Time for bed. I'll post the final stats tomorrow. Thanks a million EOE's!

Veefer800canuck · « **Reply #37 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:52:58 PM »

Yeah, have to go into disk management and create a new volume on the new disk.

CLAY · « **Reply #38 on:** January 28, 2014, 07:20:33 AM »

Here's where I am- and hopefully will be for awhile:

AMD Phenom II X4 3.01GHz
8 GB RAM
OS running on a 120 GB SSD (I ended up springing for one)
2 TB HD for the data.
2 ATI Radeon HD3450 video cards
750W power supply

OS Windows 7 x 64

Should I download the dedicated driver for the video cards or just let Windows handle it?

Jim · « **Reply #39 on:** January 28, 2014, 09:24:30 AM »

If the MS certified drivers are providing video card performance that is satisfactory to your needs, just stay with the MS certified drivers.

Installing "manufacturer" drivers will often come with additional "features" (read: baggage) and my pref, unless the features are needed, is to keep the system clean and unencumbered.

CLAY · « **Reply #40 on:** January 28, 2014, 09:59:25 AM »

Perfect. That's what I figured. Now to add all the programs. Thanks a bunch!

Jim · « **Reply #41 on:** January 28, 2014, 10:12:21 AM »

If you have any thought as to redirecting your page & temp files...
https://www.sport-touring.org/index.php?topic=654.msg15162#msg15162
the time to do it is while you can easily delete & recreate partitions on your 2TB drive...

CLAY · « **Reply #42 on:** January 28, 2014, 12:51:37 PM »

How do I do this part?

Quote

I'd put the page file - removing any page file on the SSD/C-partition. I'd also redirect temporary files for the OS, User, web browsers to this partition.

I created a 20G partition in the 2TB drive.

Jim · « **Reply #43 on:** January 28, 2014, 01:01:51 PM »

Did you create the 20G part before the large partition for "the rest of it". The small partition would be represented "at the left" edge when viewing it in the graphical portion of Disk Management. If it's at that "left edge" / was created first, then that partition is where you'd want it. You don't need to start using it now, just so that it's there for use. You, you might wish to change drive letters of the partitions of your 2TB, now or at least before you start to use them. Disk Management can rename / change the drive letter for a partition.

When they're set (partition arrangement & drive letters) you can use them whenever you wish (or not) - but getting them set now when it's easy could save time later.

If you wish steps to move the page file & relocate TEMP variables for OS & USER files & perhaps browser cache files, holler.

CLAY · « **Reply #44 on:** January 28, 2014, 01:22:41 PM »

Quote from: Jim on January 28, 2014, 01:01:51 PM

If you wish steps to move the page file & relocate TEMP variables for OS & USER files & perhaps browser cache files, holler.

Hollering!

Jim · « **Reply #45 on:** January 28, 2014, 01:47:05 PM »

sending pm in a few

HipGnosis · « **Reply #46 on:** February 03, 2014, 10:42:28 AM »

Are you doing backups along the way?
I recommend one as soon as you get everything working - before adding programs.
But I think you're past that.
I put my data on a drive or partition separate from boot/windows - makes restores much easier and I seldom have to re-back up the boot/windows partition.