Quote from: Cookie on April 18, 2020, 04:59:09 AM

I truly believe that we are at a time where there is NO trustworthy source of information.

Everything is about $$$.

The truth belongs to whoever writes the largest check.

Geeze boss, your smarter than you look. 

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while.

Quote from: Cookie on April 18, 2020, 04:59:09 AM

I truly believe that we are at a time where there is NO trustworthy source of information.

Everything is about $$$.

The truth belongs to whoever writes the largest check.

This is the truest thing here.

Mike, you can find any conspiracy anywhere if you look hard enough. The overwhelmingly large body of information continues to suggest this is a species jump; let that be scary enough, because it is.

....

There's enough scary shit in the world, in the here and now, in the basest explanations of how we're all just trying to get through a day, without perpetuating a bunch of fear and conspiracy-based unproven tripe.

Stop it.

Well, Cookie really nails it down. 

Chornbe, I’m not going to fringe sources for information.  I knew 9/11 was coming before it happened because the data was there and the masses were ignoring it.  Past pandemic scares I knew were BS because the data didn’t back the claims.  This time, I saw the data that this was a true pandemic, and the usual fear porn peddlers were silent...that only made it more alarming.

The CCP has been at war with the west for decades.  They have an open agenda to overthrow the USA and be the dominant global power by 2025.  They steal our IP.  They use most every dime we spend in Chinese-made goods to fuel their war machine.  They gained access to US nuclear science and technology to jump forward their nuclear weapons program (thank you President Clinton).  They not so subtly threatened us over intervening in their plans for Taiwan (an independent nation) by saying we wouldn’t sacrifice L.A. for Taiwan.  They have consistently and repeatedly conducted cyber warfare attacks on the military and civilian data networks of other nations...the USA being a favorite target.  NONE OF THIS IS A SECRET.

Now, thanks to political dumb assary (or treason), they were able to obtain a Level 4 biological research laboratory.  Oh, they’re studying viruses and want to make vaccines?  Sorry, their past history and open motives make me question that claim most strongly. 

We should have a HEALTHY fear of China.  The CCP is not kind or benevolent.  Any dissidents end up in prison, work camps, or just killed.  They don’t have any respect for non-Asian races nor believe in letting the people be free or have equality.  Their motives are not pure, and even if this pandemic was 100% naturally occurring and an accidental release, the CCP lied about it, the CCP destroyed all lab research and cleansed the site of all genetic evidence (which could help find a vaccine), the CCP punished people who tried to warn the world at large of the outbreak, and the CCP not only confiscated paid for PPE gear en route to other nations, they instructed Chinese nationals around the world to buy all the PPE they could get and ship it to China on the down low.  Add in that they’ve shipped to other nations defective PPE and tainted/defective testing kits, and there is no question as to the criminality of the CCP’s actions.

So, what comes next?  Most nations want to sue China for the damage in lost lives and economic impact for utterly failing to do as agreed by international treaty and sound the alarm when this started.  Will that (if successful) be enough?  We should be treating the CCP’s ambition to have nuclear weapons the same as we see it for Iran.  Yes, Iran is more trigger happy, but once the CCP can threaten mutual assured destruction on the USA (their only real barrier to global dominance) they WILL start a campaign to seize power throughout Asia and the South Pacific.  The naive belief that free trade will transform China to a free society is playing right into their plans.  The politicians have their own agenda, and it doesn’t align with what intelligence experts have been saying regarding the CCP for several presidential administrations.

My fear is that when this is over, we all go back to “business as usual” when dealing with China.. Will the world (if not at least the USA) wake up and see the CCP as the threat they pose to the human race if allowed to continue as they’ve done so far?

The wars of the 21st century are going to be ideological more than military. 

We thought we beat Communism when the Berlin Wall came down.  WE DID NOT.  After the fall, practically all of Europe embraced socialism in practice, and most freedoms once enjoyed are rapidly being eliminated in favor of the new ideology taking root.  The citizens who are 60+ remember how it was and see what’s happening.  The citizens under 30 are largely oblivious.

We think we’re winning the “war on terror.”  We’ve made huge strides, but so long as the ideological foundation exists, it will always be a threat.  When people hurl “islamophobia” when we combat these ideologies, it just shows how ingrained the enemy is within our borders.  You can believe what you want, but when your beliefs encourage the subjugation or death of those who don’t share your beliefs, that needs to be  seen for the threat it poses to a free and open society.

So, now, we have the CCP threat and a pandemic that got loose because they were incompetent (or evil) enough to allow it to get out and spread.  Will the world remember this and make the CCP a political pariah until the Chinese people replace it with a more free and open system?  Will the world “take out” the CCP for their crimes against humanity (and yes, their failure to alert the world is a crime...not just a tort)? 

Or, will we go back to business as usual as those in the know wait for the day...

...the CCP perfects a biological weapon and has the only source of a vaccine on the planet? 
...the CCP can crash the US economy and start seizing territory throughout Asia?
...the CCP can successfully launch 3 to 4 nuclear devices over the USA and use an EMP blast to send us to the dark ages?

If people don’t see the evil in China’s intentions after this, there is no hope for the free world.

I think I'm going to regret posting this.

Not as much as you regret missing happy hour

the CCP is not benign. Too right. But I doubt it is about to start WW3.  It has a healthy sense of self-preservation and is very worried about its reputation. It stays in power largely on bluff.

European socialism is nowhere near the shape of any post-Marxist/ Leninist countries (which were mainly Stalinist or neo-Stalinist dictatorships, or one party dictatorships). Most European economies are a mix of capitalism and socialism and are democracies, so that people are protected and one system helps the other out. It is not something to be scared of and doesn't reduce freedom.

I think I'm going to regret posting this.

Don’t regret it.  It was intelligent and well-composed.

I’d like to think that perhaps the CCP will learn from this and reform, but I don’t put a lot of confidence in that outcome at this point.

Is that a lot?

Is that a lot?

Are you dead yet?

https://images.app.goo.gl/zAw4ujssra9kCSYh9  Somebody make this show up, will ya.  I haz the dumb.

For Vulcanbill...

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

.

anybody know anything about the Folding Home project?

https://foldingathome.org/start-folding/

the CCP is not benign. Too right. But I doubt it is about to start WW3.  It has a healthy sense of self-preservation and is very worried about its reputation. It stays in power largely on bluff.

European socialism is nowhere near the shape of any post-Marxist/ Leninist countries (which were mainly Stalinist or neo-Stalinist dictatorships, or one party dictatorships). Most European economies are a mix of capitalism and socialism and are democracies, so that people are protected and one system helps the other out. It is not something to be scared of and doesn't reduce freedom.

I think I'm going to regret posting this.

You can't use the word socialism in the United States of partial socialist-already-right-under-everyone's-noses-America and fact in the same place and time. You just can't.

You're probably going to be told by a whole bunch of Americans what socialism really is and boy howdy when they're done, won't you just feel silly.

If people don’t see the evil in China’s intentions after this, there is no hope for the free world.

The fact that the current Chinese government exists at all and operates under their current model is the evil... the evil that we saw was in a nice, warm, soft bed with cheap loans and cheap manufacturing, and holy crap we couldn't wait to get in it.

The fact that they own a majority of the debt in the usa and suck down our interest payments like a mother's teat is evil of our own doing.

The fact they can put a stranglehold on the West by simply saying "nope, we're closing that factory" is the evil of our own doing.

Dude, China is a threat because we unbuckled our pants and say "hey boys..." while pulling a Marilyn Monroe-esque slow walk around the bed rubbing our own nipples to get that sweet, cheap money and low cost manufacturing.

China would be completely idiotic to attack us with nukes or bio weapons when they have everything they already wanted from us; financial and material reliance, and full on supplication of responsibility for those.

If there's a thing this presidency could ever be lauded for it, it's speaking pretty clear and plain about China (while bending over for Russia, but that's another story).

Sheesh.

What we really need is to find the balance between them.  A scientists says people need to stop going to the grocery store (so we starve), an economist says we need to re-open everything ASAP (so it spreads).

The path is somewhere between there, and should be decided by someone in the middle.  No matter where you fall in support or lack thereof in our various governor's efforts to do these things, I'd argue they are some of the better people for the job.

Hopefully wiser minds will prevail and prudent decisions will be made.  The governors have a tough job to do.

Is it really impossible to all come together to confront this plague?
Then sort out what's left.
 

Quote from: Flyer on April 19, 2020, 03:08:53 PM

Is it really impossible to all come together to confront this plague?
Then sort out what's left.
 

with people out on the streets in some parts of the world, protesting against the only measures that will keep us all-not just them-safe, it somehow seems unlikely.

We'll still be able to do the "sort out what's left" part.

Here at least that's what most of them were protesting.

Don’t lock ‘em down,
LOCK’EM UP!
 

I'd love to but I turn Ad-Blocker off for no one.

Quote from: Cookie on April 20, 2020, 07:20:32 AM

I'd love to but I turn Ad-Blocker off for no one.

I wasn't asked to turn off my ad-blocker. Unless... maybe I did for this site a while ago and forgot? I guess I must have, since there is a lovely banner ad for a silly hat. *shrug*

Silly hat? Ok, maybe.

Here's a nice, airy piece for some light reading.  I'm still going nowhere but to work and back with mandatory stops at the gas station but that's largely my life anyway.  But reading this...  I might double down on the sanitizing at work and at the gas station.  I guess taking comfort in my bionic immune system isn't very comforting after all. 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/04/how-does-coronavirus-kill-clinicians-trace-ferocious-rampage-through-body-brain-toes#

Quote from: garry on April 20, 2020, 08:33:54 AM

Since the govt has monetized COVID-19 deaths (giving hospitals money for each one), I can't believe any numbers regarding COVID-19 deaths.

The US is "special". This is how Switzerland feels about its leaders.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/comments/g4qjra/thank_you_mr_berset/

We're special alright. In a window licking sort of way. Just use these discussions as a reference.

From "Need2Know"

2. WHEN WILL IT END?
When do we get back to normal? What even is normal? The Atlantic’s Ed Yong, who has been doing some of the best coronavirus reporting and writing we’ve seen, sought to answer those questions in his latest piece, which should be required reading for anyone wondering what the next several months in America will look like. THE ATLANTIC

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/pandemic-summer-coronavirus-reopening-back-normal/609940/

I hadn't seen that one yet. Thank you. Damned good article. <3

And a great point that really matters when trying to find out who REALLY has been infected and not, and why it's so important..

First, antibodies aren’t always effective at neutralizing viruses. If you picture the coronavirus as a car, an antibody might slash its tires, or just gum up its wipers—and simple serology tests can’t tell which.

Second, even if the antibodies are the right kind, no one knows what concentration you’d need to confer immunity. “Even for diseases we’ve been studying for over 100 years, like whooping cough, we still don’t know what level of antibody would indicate that you’d be protected if you got reexposed,” said Sam Scarpino of Northeastern University, who studies infectious-disease dynamics. The only way to find out is through long studies.

Third, serological tests for the new coronavirus could be deeply misleading for individuals. Consider the test produced by Cellex—the only one thus far with emergency use authorization from the FDA. The test has a 93.8 percent chance of correctly identifying people with antibodies against the new coronavirus, and a 95.6 percent chance of correctly identifying people who lack those antibodies. Those numbers sound great, but if only a minority of Americans have been infected, the test would return far more false positives than true ones. Put it this way: If you have a positive result, the odds that you actually have any relevant antibodies are roughly one in two if 5 percent of the U.S. has been infected, and just one in six if only 1 percent has been infected. Scientists can correct for these errors if they use serological tests to assess immunity in a population, but it’s much harder on a person-by-person basis.

Also another point many aren't taking into consideration, and a point I got blasted on when bringing it up in the past...

...it’s reasonable to assume that someone who recovers from COVID-19 would be less likely to get infected again (for some duration that is still unclear). “But we can’t assume that you won’t bring that virus to someone else,” said Mina, the Harvard immunologist. “I worry that a lot of employers are just assuming that having antibodies or having been infected means you’re good to get back to work.” A false sense of security could quicken the spread of the virus during future surges, especially if people ignore social-distancing orders on the mistaken belief that they are immune.

Just because you get it, nothing guarantees you're automatically immune forever. Nothing guarantees the time frame of the "if" of it. We still have so much to learn.

We still have so much to learn.

And this what people fail to realize. If Dr. Bob say one day "We believe that the virus does X", but then a week later states "We now believe that the virus does Y" - everyone goes off on the scientists for not knowing what they're talking about and how the story keeps changing 

That's the point: they are adapting their reactions to the new information that arises every day.

Quote from: Mrs. DantesDame on April 20, 2020, 12:56:48 PM

That's the point: they are adapting their reactions to the new information that arises every day.

Then why not just say that they have no clue what they're dealing with, but are learning. By coming out with statements as "fact' only to be contradicted later, undermines  any validity in what is put forth later.

Valid point by Toilet Boy.

Quote from: minimac on April 20, 2020, 01:35:31 PM

Quote from: Mrs. DantesDame on April 20, 2020, 12:56:48 PM

That's the point: they are adapting their reactions to the new information that arises every day.

Then why not just say that they have no clue what they're dealing with, but are learning. By coming out with statements as "fact' only to be contradicted later, undermines  any validity in what is put forth later.

The scientists have been saying exactly that. And that's why they also say that reopening when we haven't even put a competent testing plan in place is silly.

Exactly. I have heard many, many reports about how this is completely new and they are still trying to understand how the virus works, etc.

This is a valid case of "choose your news source carefully" - those who say they have the "facts" should be regarded with suspicion.