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Offline Stripes

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Canbus?
« on: January 24, 2014, 09:54:14 AM »
What is this "canbus" system that I've been hearing about lately concerning motorcycle batteries & Battery Tenders? Many thanks in advance! Cheers
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Offline Smilodon_Con

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2014, 11:09:51 AM »
It's the proprietary BMW float charger that costs $349.95.

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Offline mxvet57

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2014, 11:12:32 AM »
I'm no expert but what i understand about it is it's a way for all the computers on a vehicle to talk to each other over a single wire.

http://canbuskit.com/what.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller_area_network

CAN bus (for controller area network) is a vehicle bus standard designed to allow microcontrollers and devices to communicate with each other within a vehicle without a host computer.

CAN bus is a message-based protocol, designed specifically for automotive applications but now also used in other areas such as aerospace, maritime, industrial automation and medical equipment.

Development of the CAN bus started originally in 1983 at Robert Bosch GmbH.[1] The protocol was officially released in 1986 at the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) congress in Detroit, Michigan. The first CAN controller chips, produced by Intel and Philips, came on the market in 1987. Bosch published the CAN 2.0 specification in 1991. In 2012 Bosch has specified the improved CAN data link layer protocol, called CAN FD, which will extend the ISO 11898-1.

CAN bus is one of five protocols used in the on-board diagnostics (OBD)-II vehicle diagnostics standard. The OBD-II standard has been mandatory for all cars and light trucks sold in the United States since 1996, and the EOBD standard has been mandatory for all petrol vehicles sold in the European Union since 2001 and all diesel vehicles since 2004.[2]
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Offline Max Wedge

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2014, 11:45:24 AM »
It also eliminates fuses. If a fault above or below a certain voltage is detected on a circuit, it will shut that circuit down until the fault is corrected. This is where the charger problem comes from, and a special key-on, plug-in, key off procedure must be followed to prevent the canbus from shutting the circuit off to allow charging.
Or you can just wire the charger leads to the battery. Problem solved.
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Online Black Hills

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2014, 12:07:02 PM »
Mostly it is something people complain about with no reason. As said wire your tender to the battery and don't worry about it.
the above are merely the ramblings of a hamfisted fuckwit who has broken too many helmets.

Offline Max Wedge

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2014, 12:32:41 PM »
Mostly it is something people complain about with no reason. As said wire your tender to the battery and don't worry about it.

There is some reason if you are adding/modifying your electrical system or lighting. Stock, its fine, but modifications can  send you down a rabbit hole. You just have a little more research to do than a conventional system.
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Offline FJR1300

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2014, 12:42:25 PM »
It's the proprietary BMW float charger that costs $349.95.

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BMW makes a charger that was designed for the CANBUS, but any charger will work if connected directly to the battery terminals. The BMW charger allows you to plug into the accessory port, which is controlled by the CANBUS.

Offline Scratch

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2014, 12:55:16 PM »
What is this "canbus" system that I've been hearing about lately concerning motorcycle batteries & Battery Tenders? Many thanks in advance! Cheers


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Offline Max Wedge

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2014, 01:55:29 PM »
In other words, a minor voltage surge during the start-up of an HID headlamp in a regular electrical system goes undetected. On a canbus system, well, I will repost some of the research from a GS forum:

50W SLIM BALLAST TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Model HD-B50-HID
Input Voltage Range 9-32VDC
Typical Operating Voltage 12.8VDC / 24VDC
Typical Input Current 4.3A @ 12.8VDC / 2.2A @ 24VDC
Max. Inrush Current 8.5A


So, it is finally cold enough in Michigan and, sadly, too cold for my DDM HID kit. Below about 65F the low beam craps out, i.e., LAMPF! (despite the "CAN Bus cancellers" from DDM). So far the high beam has been working down to 40F. We'll see how it holds up when the winter comes.

Just to reiterate, the central control electronic measures the current to the low/high beam and disables the output if the current is either too low or too high to warn of a failed bulb or prevent circuit damage, respectively (remember, this bike does not have fuses). It does that by measuring the voltage across a shunt inside the module and only allows a certain voltage window.

After reading the recent posts I decided to do some further tests and here are the results (2008 R1200GS):

A. Forget the resistor in series. The HID module controls the power, that means if you reduce the effective input voltage by using a series resistor the HID tries to compensate by increasing the current. I confirmed this with an adjustable power resistor. Once the resistor is big enough the HID just starts to flicker. I managed to get the HID to stay on for a maximum of 250 milliseconds. That's it. So the module checks the current after 250ms after start-up (again).

B. By using an adjustable resistor instead of the HID, I also measured the thresholds (low and high current) to find the point at which the central controller shuts down the low beam. The upper threshold was at about 6.2A @14.2V. The threshold is probably somewhat lower while the alternator gets to full output. During this time the current rises (for about 2-3sec after crank). The lower threshold was at 0.86A @14.2V. So, the current must be between these two values to be acceptable for the central controller.
I didn't check the high beam as these thresholds are typically higher,

This confirms everybody's findings:

A. Some kits are just above, some below the 6.2A. Keep in mind that there is also some tolerance of the threshold from one bike to another.

B. Using a relay to switch battery directly to the lamp will work if you have a resistor in parallel to the relay coil of about 14.2V/0.86A = 16 Ohms to satisfy the minimum threshold. Maybe 15 Ohms to be on the safe side. At 14.2V this resistor "consumes" 14.2Vx14.2V/15Ohms = 13.5Watts. Make sure that the resistor has adequate cooling surface. A 50W resistor can only handle 50W with a huge heatsink!!! Consider using a 15W or 18W automotive lamp instead (you know how hot that gets! The resistor is no different).

Finally, there is one other option I am going to investigate when I have some more time (not for the faint hearted  ). As mentioned earlier the central controller uses a shunt to measure the current. If I could reduce that shunt by, say 20%, the thresholds for the current would increase by 25%. But there are a bunch of "If's". I would assume that the module is sealed against water intrusion etc. - We'll see. I'll report back if this is feasible (you can really fuck up your bike if something goes wrong  ). Anybody know off hand where this module is hiding??
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Offline Stripes

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2014, 02:07:46 PM »
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That looks more like a cat bus rather than a canbus!
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Offline Scratch

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2014, 03:17:18 PM »
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That looks more like a cat bus rather than a canbus!


Oops!

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Offline Stripes

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2014, 10:01:13 PM »
So if I understand it correctly, canbus is a BMW thing? I don't have to worry about it anyway if the Battery Tender is going directly to the battery?
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Online miles

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2014, 11:16:22 PM »
So if I understand it correctly, canbus is a BMW thing? I don't have to worry about it anyway if the Battery Tender is going directly to the battery?

I believe HD uses CanBus also..

But yes, if the tender goes straight to the battery there is no problem.
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Offline Smilodon_Con

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2014, 02:51:34 AM »
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That looks more like a cat bus rather than a canbus!


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Offline bomber

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2014, 02:19:40 PM »
So if I understand it correctly, canbus is a BMW thing? I don't have to worry about it anyway if the Battery Tender is going directly to the battery?

I believe HD uses CanBus also..

But yes, if the tender goes straight to the battery there is no problem.

Triumph also uses CanBus, but in a very limited manner -- ie, my 07 Tiger is CanBus to the engine computer, but no where else.
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Online Black Hills

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2014, 03:25:25 PM »
So if I understand it correctly, canbus is a BMW thing? I don't have to worry about it anyway if the Battery Tender is going directly to the battery?

I believe HD uses CanBus also..

But yes, if the tender goes straight to the battery there is no problem.

Triumph also uses CanBus, but in a very limited manner -- ie, my 07 Tiger is CanBus to the engine computer, but no where else.

KTM does something similar on the 1190's
the above are merely the ramblings of a hamfisted fuckwit who has broken too many helmets.

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2014, 03:35:57 PM »
I see this thread title every time I check and every time, I see this.

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Offline Stripes

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2014, 03:38:39 PM »
I agree! Cannibus! LOL
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Offline mxvet57

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2014, 07:47:48 PM »
At the risk of encouraging him, I agree with Cookie.   "Bomber"

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Offline kneescrubber

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2014, 08:56:57 PM »
 :rolf:
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Offline Stripes

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Re: Canbus?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2014, 10:17:13 PM »
 :lol:
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