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Author Topic: Harley commits to Electrics  (Read 2985 times)

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Online HipGnosis

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Harley commits to Electrics
« on: March 01, 2018, 03:28:13 PM »
H-D bought interest in an EV MC co... that makes dirt bikes.

https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2018/03/01/harley-davidson-continues-electric-charge-invests-alta-motors/

Harley’s first EV (for sale) is set for a 2019 release.
 
 :popcorn:
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Offline OHScot

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2018, 06:07:44 PM »
Well, I hope they get the sound right.
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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2018, 06:10:48 PM »
I have little hope for them unless H-D gives the Ebikes their own dealerships.
I've heard what the dealers did to Buell enthusiasts, I can imagine what they'd do to anyone interested in Ebikes.
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Offline Stu

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2018, 06:16:05 PM »
I have little hope for them unless H-D gives the Ebikes their own dealerships.
I've heard what the dealers did to Buell enthusiasts, I can imagine what they'd do to anyone interested in Ebikes.

Yup, maybe in say 40 years, when all of the gasoline dinosaurs are dead, maybe Hardley Ableson might be a viable player in the electric market.   But until then.... not happening.  Look what the faithful did with something as revolutionary as the VRod.  (Granted it has its own issues, but still.....)

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2018, 06:20:10 PM »
Harley's been out of the Buell business for nine years, I would not be surprised if the corporate culture of HD had undergone some changes in that time.

Also, the Live Wire is an in house project rather than an acquisition so there's likely to be some pressure from the home office to be less of a dick to potential buyers.

One would hope.
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Online leeo45

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2018, 09:12:34 PM »
I understand the need for working capital at Alta, however I am hoping it doesn't screw up the bikes and their development path.   They have some very nice and extremely capable offroad and supermoto bikes available now and are steadily improving the designs.   They reduced the prices of the 2018 models by as much as $4,500 from 2017 prices so they are comparable to top flight ICE bikes.  Once they get the 4CS forks off the enduro bike I will probably buy one.

Alta has the best battery, motor, and control technology of the current e-bikes IMO, so I am sure HD can benefit from this if they are truly committed to a road-going electric motorcycle.   Range will continue to be a challenge, but possibly not so much for many Harley riders as for the typical ST.O rider.   Despite what they tell themselves about the positive rider feedback on the LiveWire, the image and sound, or lack thereof, will be a huge marketing challenge for HD.

And BTW, Musk/Tesla were one of the earliest financial investors in Alta so that can't hurt either; although I don't know if they share any technology between the two companies.

Offline Blunder

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2018, 02:06:46 AM »
Well at least they won't be hindered by lack of range and installing charging stations outside of bars and taverns is an opportunity.
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Offline st2sam

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2018, 07:33:13 AM »
All great reply's, but IMO Stu said it best.
"Yup, maybe in say 40 years, when all of the gasoline dinosaurs are dead, maybe Hardley Ableson might be a viable player in the electric market.   But until then.... not happening."

At this time that makes the most sense too me.  I gotta give HD:thumbsup: for getting the ball rolling.

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Offline chornbe

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2018, 02:52:24 PM »
Anyone in thread ever owned a Harley, or had any serious dealings with them? They know their craft, and they're not dummies. Everything that many of us see as a negative, good or bad, has been a choice and a reaction to their core buyers' wants and needs. I can't say I agree with much of what they've showing publicly (especially dropping the Dyna !!! ), but whatever changes are coming for Harley will be slow and methodical while still trying to appease their bread-n-butter buyers. Give it time... Meanwhile, you know there are like 5 or 6 companies mass (enough) manufacturing electric bikes that can be had right now... just right now.

Who's buying?

In short, maybe we not beat up on Harley too much without at least looking at the get-them-right-now alternatives...?
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Online bedlamite

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2018, 02:58:52 PM »
Well, I hope they get the sound right.

They are going to use the potato to power it.

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Online HipGnosis

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2018, 10:04:56 AM »
I heard or saw somewhere that a public safety organization is pushing for EV's to make a certain amount of sound to warn pedestrians.  I wonder if the owners will get to pick the sound, like we pick ring tones.  Hopefully the mfgs will tie it into the sensors for auto-braking and only turn it on when someone is near.   And actually, most new ICE vehicles are very quiet.  Even H-Ds (when stock).

H-D does have the best customers for electric.  They are use to heavy bikes.   They (generally) don't care about performance or range. 

I looked pretty hard at Zero bikes last year.   You can get some decent range (they say the longest-range production electric motorcycle on earth), but it ain't cheap.  You gotta buy a bigger battery.  And the fast charge 'tank' and a home station to make it more practical.
Then you have to find compatible charging stations - which may dictate your route...  And Zero doesn't help you find them.


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Online HipGnosis

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2019, 01:40:22 PM »
I just saw an ad on TV for the LiveWire;  ABC, X Games snowboarding and snowbike cross (I'm watching the show just to see what that is).
It sounded kinda turbine-ie  (dunno if it was dubbed).
The riding position is sport-standard.
The tag:  Go even bigger  (which makes no sense to me).

And H-D sponsored one of the female snowboarders.
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Offline BuckeyeRider

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2019, 12:31:48 PM »
Maybe Harley should finance a new reboot movie "E"z Rider.

The first one seems to have worked out pretty well for them.

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2019, 06:36:33 AM »
Well, I hope they get the sound right.

They are going to use the potato to power it.

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Offline chornbe

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 07:03:21 AM »
I looked pretty hard at Zero bikes last year.   You can get some decent range (they say the longest-range production electric motorcycle on earth), but it ain't cheap.  You gotta buy a bigger battery.  And the fast charge 'tank' and a home station to make it more practical.
Then you have to find compatible charging stations - which may dictate your route...  And Zero doesn't help you find them.

And this is why Tesla is the only viable name in electric cars right now. Sure, sure... Bolt, Leaf, the various plug-in hybrids, etc., yadda yadda yadda. range. price. route. charging. location. assistance. Tesla is the only company doing all that together. The number of available fully-electric cars is way bigger than you might think. The only name people know is Tesla. Because it's the only name you see at rest stop charging stations and in parking garages, etc.

Zero is circling the drain, and no one is going to ever choose more friction in their life. Zero adds friction with the insane price bumps after teasing you with a "reasonable" price on the entry level, and not providing after-sale support in charging opportunities. :(

It's a market that has an uphill battle in every single direction, not the least of which is that gas is still stupid-cheap per unit of energy compared to every single other option. Sometimes by staggering factors. And to our own detriment, we still loooooooove our gas engines.

In 2008 I bought a Corolla. I wanted a Prius for all the reasons one thinks they want a prius. The smallest price difference was $8000. $8000 buys a LOT of gas in a 30-MPG corolla. That's what I bought.

(and let's not get into the myth of "clean" electric cars - it's complete bullshit)
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Offline minimac

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2019, 09:47:46 AM »
Until the manufacturers can agree on a charging system, infrastructure is the biggest stumbling block to electrics growth.  Sort of like the Tesla vs. Edison, Ac/Dc thing.  It's not going to make a hill of beans who makes what, until that is settled.
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Online HipGnosis

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2019, 10:43:21 AM »

It's a market that has an uphill battle in every single direction, not the least of which is that gas is still stupid-cheap per unit of energy compared to every single other option. Sometimes by staggering factors. And to our own detriment, we still loooooooove our gas engines.

Electric car cost to charge per mile is very hard to determine.  Many utilities change the price a few times a day.  Night is typically 'off-peak'  which is cheaper than day time.  Some places have 'peak hours' in the evening when they charge extra.  Some charging stations are free...
per  https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/8/4/1687085/-ELECTRIC-CARS-The-REAL-Cost-Per-Mile-From-Ed-Owens-Rebuttal-with-Actual-FACTS  (in '17);
average cost of electricity... is about $0.03 to $0.045 per mile
a similar size car with a gasoline engine that gets only 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile.
 Note (mine) Gas has dropped about 33% since then, so now it's $0.066 / mile.
 That still means elec is only 66% of the cost of gas per mile!

Plus, elec cars have MUCH lower maint. and repair costs.  Fewer moving parts, no oil or coolant, etc.  Which means they are more reliable.

The real cost (after initial price and cost to install charging at home (which is only avail. to home owners?)) is the time it takes to recharge, both finding and going to a station (which is getting better) and the actual time it takes.

I don't think we're in love with our gas engines.  I think we're in love with going where we want, when we want (as fast as we want?) w/o having to think about adding much time it'll take to keep doing it.
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Offline chornbe

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2019, 11:11:58 AM »
I'm talking about the cost of the car, not the charging. Otherwise, yeah.

I'm certainly not turning every rest stop into an hour long ordeal when all I need is five minutes to fill the tank and pee.

I'd love to have one for local use, but the cost to just get into them is idiotic, and the use market for electrics is... interesting.
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Offline Max Wedge

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2019, 06:07:59 AM »
I would totally consider one, even with the price premium, but range was the issue. Zero finally created one that comfortably would cover the range-and I moved and now I am at the fringes again. I work at an electric car company, and we have a charging station right by the front door. Problem solved? Nope, it's out of order half the time. So I wait until the next range extension, and continue to ride my GS with 40mpg.
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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2019, 08:25:59 AM »
I'm talking about the cost of the car, not the charging. Otherwise, yeah.

I'm certainly not turning every rest stop into an hour long ordeal when all I need is five minutes to fill the tank and pee.

I'd love to have one for local use, but the cost to just get into them is idiotic, and the use market for electrics is... interesting.

If you think the cost is idiotic, figure what it is without the subsidies! The maintenance isn't cheap,either. Tires cost the same-maybe more, and what is the cost at the dealer when the battery craps the bed. And it will. you can't work on them yourself, unless you're good with the extreme amps they pack. That hour long ordeal at the rest stop is only an hour,+/-,  if there isn't anyone waiting for their turn at the charging station-if it's even compatible.
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Offline chornbe

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2019, 09:36:39 AM »
I'm talking about the cost of the car, not the charging. Otherwise, yeah.

I'm certainly not turning every rest stop into an hour long ordeal when all I need is five minutes to fill the tank and pee.

I'd love to have one for local use, but the cost to just get into them is idiotic, and the use market for electrics is... interesting.

If you think the cost is idiotic, figure what it is without the subsidies! The maintenance isn't cheap,either. Tires cost the same-maybe more, and what is the cost at the dealer when the battery craps the bed. And it will. you can't work on them yourself, unless you're good with the extreme amps they pack. That hour long ordeal at the rest stop is only an hour,+/-,  if there isn't anyone waiting for their turn at the charging station-if it's even compatible.

 :thumbsup:

I'm sure we'll all get there, eventually. But I don't have the time, resources, or frankly, the passion, to be one of the early-adopter people working through the growing pains. Been there and done that on many other marketplace entries. Happy to again if I can in other areas. I can't with a $40,000+ car that doesn't solve all the problems a $20,000 car can.

ESPECIALLY not making that choice for a $15,000 motorcycle that an $8000 can do better.
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Online thatguy

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2020, 07:31:57 AM »
An objective honest review of the LiveWire. If you'd like to ride one (and are close enough) PM me and I'll give you details. You do not need to consider buying one we've a demo model and want many to experience the truth about the bike beyond cost. It's really an exciting ride and a quality piece of equipment.


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Offline OHScot

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2020, 07:51:08 AM »
Sure it is nice and electric and stuff. 



Gas is around $1.50 a gallon around here.  Stupid cheap no waiting 250 mile range @ 75 MPH with existing bikes I already own.  For now this is a novelty.  Future may be different.  Hope they sell a million of em.
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Offline SuperHans

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2020, 08:59:33 AM »
An objective honest review of the LiveWire. If you'd like to ride one (and are close enough) PM me and I'll give you details. You do not need to consider buying one we've a demo model and want many to experience the truth about the bike beyond cost. It's really an exciting ride and a quality piece of equipment.


I'm interested. PM sent.

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2020, 08:59:45 AM »
A Swiss rider completed a SS1000 on a LiveWire in early March. 23 hours and 48 minutes crossing 4 countries. To be honest they're not selling well but I didn't expect them to. Wish I had the cash but after buying a RoadKing in December it's just not in the cards. Maybe after there's a few used ones on the market we'll see.
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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2020, 09:04:35 AM »
An objective honest review of the LiveWire. If you'd like to ride one (and are close enough) PM me and I'll give you details. You do not need to consider buying one we've a demo model and want many to experience the truth about the bike beyond cost. It's really an exciting ride and a quality piece of equipment.


I'm interested. PM sent.

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Offline SuperHans

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2020, 09:34:09 AM »
A Swiss rider completed a SS1000 on a LiveWire in early March. 23 hours and 48 minutes crossing 4 countries. To be honest they're not selling well but I didn't expect them to. Wish I had the cash but after buying a RoadKing in December it's just not in the cards. Maybe after there's a few used ones on the market we'll see.

I read about him. IIRC, half of the ride was just going back and forth between the same two charging stations.

I always liked the idea of an electric motorcycle for commuting or short rides where range really isn't an issue.

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2020, 09:49:52 AM »
Kinda like YellowWolf on the dragon?  It counts.
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Offline SuperHans

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2020, 10:06:00 AM »
Kinda like YellowWolf on the dragon?  It counts.

Sure it counts, never said it didn't. I guess my point is more about range limitations of electrics and their charging stations than it is about the technicality of the SS1000.

https://jalopnik.com/yes-you-can-do-an-iron-butt-on-a-harley-davidson-livew-1842461996

Quote
Once in Stuttgart, the Harley was charged up for about 25 minutes and headed back south to Singen, Germany (about 93 miles). From there, the rider did a back-and-forth commute between Singen and Stuttgart six times, charging just shy of half an hour at each end. On the final stop, he then peeled off to head to Ruggell, Lichtenstein for the finish line. The total miles traveled at the end of the trip was actually 1070 miles.

The article does state that he did get significantly more range out of the batteries during the initial leg of the trip than what Harley advertises, but the details of how they manage that are not included in the story (Lower speeds on the highway?).

Offline Bounce

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2020, 10:47:55 AM »
A Swiss rider completed a SS1000 on a LiveWire in early March. 23 hours and 48 minutes crossing 4 countries. To be honest they're not selling well but I didn't expect them to. Wish I had the cash but after buying a RoadKing in December it's just not in the cards. Maybe after there's a few used ones on the market we'll see.

On a track... with multiple riders... and quick-charge stations at hand.

Kinda like YellowWolf on the dragon?  It counts.

Actually, according the IBA, it didn't count.

Offline Bounce

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2020, 10:48:33 AM »
dupe

Offline SuperHans

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2020, 11:08:14 AM »
On a track... with multiple riders... and quick-charge stations at hand.

Did you read the article I posted above? The conditions you stated were in regards to a Zero electric motorcycle. The Harley Livewire was done on public streets by a single person.

Offline Bounce

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2020, 11:12:35 AM »
On a track... with multiple riders... and quick-charge stations at hand.

Did you read the article I posted above? The conditions you stated were in regards to a Zero electric motorcycle. The Harley Livewire was done on public streets by a single person.

I read it a few weeks ago. In that time, the 2 stories melded into one.

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2020, 01:17:56 PM »
There will always be those who enjoy shooting holes in people's roofs. No matter truth stands alone.
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Online HipGnosis

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Re: Harley commits to Electrics
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2020, 02:08:04 PM »
I Saw a Livewire in the wild today - residential neighborhood not far from my house.   He was going the other way.  I had to google 'livewire images' to be sure that's what it was.
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