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Online Jim

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Home/Personal Defense
« on: November 28, 2013, 12:38:58 PM »
The My New Black Gun thread touched a fair bit on the topic of home defense - enough that a standalone thread would be decent.

The contribution I'd offer is "electronic simulator training". A local store installed a setup and I've spent a few training sessions with it and am well impressed. It is the closest thing (that I have experienced) to real life home defense training without throwing real bullets.

The theater utilizes a real gun, converted to a laser "bullet" and CO2 cartridge for "kickback", with a big screen for the scenario to play out.

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The system has hundreds of scenario's. Most are "real life" while some are CGI (static targets, moving "range paper" targets, pop-ups, etc.).

In a grand opening test of the system, the operator / instructor gave me a rifle threat, wearing a bullet resistant vest, coming out of a door on the side of a building. I ended up being killed (the screen flashes white when the threat wins). My shots, when the scene was replayed with shot placement displayed, were "around" the threat but not on it. I asked for a conventional range "paper" target to be put up as I questioned the gun's laser alignment - all shots were where desired. It wasn't the tool but rather it was me. I had some aversion to shooting at a "real" human (though had no issue with human shaped paper targets). That scenario sold me on the training value of the system.

I have been back a couple times since, and the most recent visit I asked for that scenario to be re-played. While I knew what to expect, the big change was the headshot to stop the threat. I lived. A good progression of learning.

For me, the instructor is also holistic in training. He states that the scene does not stop when the threat is on the ground. Stay at attention with the gun ready. Is the threat capable of getting off a shot? Are there other threats? Scan the area - be complete.

This particular system is from Ti Training. Here are some links, if you're interested:

Northern Colorado FiTS
http://nocofits.com/
https://www.facebook.com/rockymountainfits

Ti Training
http://www.titraining.com/product1_overview.html
http://www.youtube.com/user/TiTraining

Gander Mountain has a vid with a similar simulator (jump to 1 minute 9 seconds in)
www.YouTube.com/watch?v=sU7jMJkYErY?t=1m9s

« Last Edit: November 29, 2013, 09:28:12 AM by Jim »
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Online Cookie

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2013, 02:08:23 PM »
Home defense here is keeping the bears away from the bird feeder. If anyone were to come into the house, they would be met with the .45 on my bed table.
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Offline SuperHans

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2013, 02:09:57 PM »
So what does a training session cost?

Online Jim

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2013, 07:16:33 PM »
$50 for 30 min session (instructor is generous with the time though)

Vs. a standard range ($20/hour, 1 hour minimum) + ammo (and gun rental, if needed) it's competitively priced (not so much if someone can shoot in their back yard [or a short drive] with only the ammo expense).

Mainly, it opens up a new training realm so it does not directly compete with standard range work - both have their place.
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Offline misanthropist

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2013, 08:23:55 PM »
That's interesting. I've never given one of those a whirl but I'd like to.

I have done a fair bit of force-on - force with simunitions and it really changes - I mean radically changes -your perspective on what works and what doesn't.

Trying to overcome an opposing intelligence that is trained and goal-oriented and prepared to shoot you with something that is going to hurt and scar you up can be truly frightening. This seems like a midpoint between shooting static targets and actual FOF.

Doing entangled gunfights with sim guns and multiple opponents is a big part of why I think about HD the way I do, with ARs and Glocks and mechanisms of incapacitation. I realize it sounds fairly crazy in the context of normal life. But it's based on a training background that represents a pretty logical progression of use-of-force scenarios.
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Offline misanthropist

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2013, 08:46:38 PM »
Now I'm starting to veer off into self defense rather than home defense, but assuming I don't screw this up, here is a good example of what I see as the kind of deficiency that crops up in most training:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DE61jnJe_1SI

I recommend watching the whole thing but about 50 seconds in, you get to see what violent street assaults really look like. It often isn't a clear situation to deal with until it's right on top of you.

In that way, the home defense scenario may be one of the best scenarios to face: he's there, and presumption of criminal intent is more straightforward. On the other hand, where are your kids? How confident are you in the decision you're about to make? How much ground does your assailant have to cover? Is he alone and how do you know? How able are you to control your gun if the fight gets really physical?

My goal here is not to sound preachy or judgmental or holier than thou. I'm just trying to get the idea across that the easy answers may not solve the problem, and the obvious conclusions might be wrong. I believe that in the field of armed defense it's absolutely critical to keep questioning one's training and development, to examine the solutions and locate the flaws.

In fact I think it is fair to say that I'd like to apply the scientific method to theories of armed defense simply because I have found that a lot of the standard assumptions break down when tested against a motivated, opposing force.
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Online Black Hills

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2013, 08:47:34 PM »
Where do you live that requires you to train at this level to feel safe? The whole thing just seems nuts to me?
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Offline misanthropist

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2013, 09:03:59 PM »
I live in Canada in an area so safe I don't even lock my door half the time.

I used to own a small business that consulted within the firearms industry, primarily for companies providing services and equipment to western militaries, law enforcement, and private security firms doing close protection and anti - piracy work. I used to travel for that work.

I train mainly for fun now and I don't mean to imply that this level of training is remotely necessary to live in the first world. It is more about the analysis of the assumptions that underpin most people's ideas about armed defense.

I don't mind if people aren't even slightly interested in owning a gun. You can probably go your whole life without ever needing one.

It's just that once people start discussing self defense and home defense and guns, well, that is a field of expertise for me and I don't like to see people operating with really inaccurate underlying beliefs about how things are likely to go.


ETA: I didn't travel extensively/all the time/to Somalia or anything.  My business partner who dealt with the military side spent more time traveling and shaking sand and Afghani dust out of his armour than I ever will.  95% of the time I was relaxing on a couch with a laptop and a drink.  Just so I'm being clear that I wasn't living out Blackhawk Down or anything.
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Offline misanthropist

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2013, 09:08:34 PM »
And for the record if I thought I HAD to be a god damn ninja to make it through my day monday to friday...I'd move somewhere safer.  Avoidance is a hell of a lot less effort than fighting and winning.

My frame of reference is just a little different than most.
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Online Jim

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2013, 09:17:32 PM »
As I recall, the magic number (not like it could be set in stone) is 20'. Beyond 20' a trained person might reasonably be able to decide, draw, aim, fire to stop a threat before the threat has time to close the distance but within that range, possibly not.

The video above shows close proximity, something where a firearm could be a negative (threat turning the gun upon you). Some real life is the knockout game. In all, distance / separation is important.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/11/16/potentially-fatal-knockout-game-targeting-strangers-may-be-spreading-to-d-c/

As for needing to have a gun on hand...

Think of it as an insurance possibility - something you hope to never have to need but should the need ever come up, you need it to be there in advance. You know, like riding clothes, or just a helmet. How many here have life insurance policies - it gets paid for every year and you hope to never have to use it. Is a gun NEEDED - no - it is but another "insurance" option that some choose to have before a need might arise. That's all.
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Online Black Hills

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2013, 09:26:30 PM »
I can understand doing it for fun, just seems some people (in the general sense, not here) take it too the extreme and think they are some kind of special ops guy when in reality they would probably shit their pants if something happened. These are the ones that scare me.
Have an accident and walk up to someone's house for help in the middle of the night and getting shot is now a serious concern. I just think some people take it a bit too far.
the above are merely the ramblings of a hamfisted fuckwit who has broken too many helmets.

Offline misanthropist

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2013, 09:32:18 PM »
Oh I totally agree...if you think you've dealt with some gun-wanking creeps, imagine what it's like when you're in the industry and have to go to events like SHOT.

There is a level of paranoia that coincides with a total dearth of training that I think has the potential to lead to serious tragedies (and almost certainly already does).  In fact there's a famous recent example that springs to mind that could have probably been avoided if the survivor had had a good grounding in physical combatives, and hadn't been forced to rely on his gun...

I tend to treat training as an antidote to what might be termed "tactical ignorance".  The people who worry me are usually UNtrained, not OVERtrained.  The trained people - particularly the highly trained ones - I have dealt with are usually the ones who understand the real problems and solutions.
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Offline SuperHans

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2013, 09:43:27 PM »
To me this type of training is more of a fun thing to do that you can also learn something from. Weapon proficiency is something that interests me just as much as becoming a proficient motorcyclist. It just comes down to having a hobby you enjoy.

Offline Formerly Known as Bigfoot

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2013, 05:27:49 AM »
To me this type of training is more of a fun thing to do that you can also learn something from. Weapon proficiency is something that interests me just as much as becoming a proficient motorcyclist. It just comes down to having a hobby you enjoy.

The agency I retired from added this kind of training many years ago.  Well before they became popular.  It adds another level to our training and is certainly an eye opener at times.  These scenarios can be manipulated so many ways that you can go forever and not see the same thing.  We also started putting Citizen Academy participants through it and they all come out of it realizing that police work is not as cut and dried as they originally thought.  I highly recommend this if you can get into it.
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Online Vulcanbill

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Re: Home Defense
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2013, 06:16:46 AM »
To me this type of training is more of a fun thing to do that you can also learn something from. Weapon proficiency is something that interests me just as much as becoming a proficient motorcyclist. It just comes down to having a hobby you enjoy.

I tend to equate weapons training to motorcycle training as well.  I don't ever want to be put in a sutiation where threshold braking is a factor that could decide life and death.  However, since it CAN be, and training to get it right is fun, I do it.
Same thing with the guns.  I hope the only thing I ever have to shoot is made of paper or wood.  However, like Black Hills mentioned, I don't want to be one of those guys that freaks out and does something stupid.  I want to be so comfortable with the weapon
that I can dedicate the rest of my brain to making sound judgement calls.  So, we train with goal in mind.  On the bike, I want to know I'll be able to brake with extreme efficiency so I don't have that to worry about if I need it.

Luckily, training for both of these just happens to be fun. 
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